How did I ever get to meet Leslie Grossman, the talented actress who plays Mary Cherry on Popular? I accomplished this the old-fashioned way. I stalked her manager.
More precisely, I stalked her manager's secretary. Well, actually, first I worked some of my vast Hollywood insider connections and got the name of her publicist. I called her several times, and then her secretary called me back to say that Leslie Grossman was no longer with her. But she gave me the name and number of her current manager, so I was in business.
Well, not really. After two months of leaving messages with the secretary of Leslie Grossman's current manager, I finally got a call back -- from the secretary, not the manager -- telling me to fax her a formal request. I have no idea what they mean in show biz by a "formal request," so I just wrote this impassioned letter to Leslie's manager telling her what the character Mary Cherry means to us on MBTV and what joy it would bring us to talk to the actress who created her. I figured that in a month or so I'd actually get to speak to Leslie's manager herself, and then by Christmas I would actually have contact with Leslie Grossman.
That night, my cell phone rang. I was expecting a call from this guy I've just started seeing, so I picked up and tried to sound breezy. "Is this Gustave?" said the unfamiliar female voice on the other end. "Uh, yeah," I said, a bit stupefied that someone was calling me "Gustave" in a non-online situation. "It's Leslie Grossman. I got your fax."
It seemed that Leslie actually was quite eager to talk to us. It also seemed that someone -- well, actually me -- had speculated that Leslie had lied about her age. "I am twenty-eight years old. I will send you a copy of my birth certificate. Plus, if I'm going to lie about my age, I'd totally be twenty-two. Otherwise, what's the point?" Although Leslie doesn't own a computer and has never been online, Ryan Murphy, Popular's executive producer, prints out the recaps and forums and distributes it to the cast.
After some fast diplomacy on my part, we started playing Jewish geography. She went to Sarah Lawrence with a cousin of mine. ("That was your cousin? I was obsessed with her. She was such a freak!") I had gone to college with a friend of hers. Having established that I wasn't a stalker or a malicious gossip, she agreed to an interview without any forbidden questions. ("I can always tell you to fuck off.") She called me the day from her beach house, where she was enjoying a rare day off from shooting. As you can see, she is a very good sport.
MBTV: What are you doing right this second?
Leslie Grossman: This must be the most clichéd L.A. answer. I am sitting outside on the beach. Literally.
Talking on your cordless phone?
Talking on my cordless phone. Not my cell phone, which would make it worse -- but my cordless phone.
What kind of cell phone do you have?
I have a Nokia.
Do you like it?
It's okay but it's not glamorous enough for me. I want that little silver Nokia one. What are those, like, $900?
I think they are.
Yeah, I want one of those. I gotta get someone to give it to me for free, though.
Do you get a lot of free stuff?
Some stuff -- but never stuff I WANT. Like, I haven't had anyone from Versace calling me up offering me clothes. Like, if I go to an event, I can easily get something for free. Mostly I get a lot of free Nike, which, don't get me wrong -- it's fine, but I don't do a lot of exercising.
So what other interests or hobbies do you have, besides LYING ABOUT YOUR AGE?
Fuck you. Okay, what is wrong with everyone who is logging onto your website? I get so many phone calls from people who say I'm thirty years old. I am twenty-eight. I swear. So please just write that I am twenty-eight years old, my birthday is October 25, 1971. And there's records that show it. There are L.A. County birth records that have my real age on them. And I haven't lied about my weight. Make that clear to everybody!
Okay, on to the show. What happened to the singer on the back of the pickup truck?
[laughs] Sydney Forest is a wonderful singer-songwriter and really wonderful sweet person. I just think it wasn't working. People didn't like it. We loved Sydney but it just didn't work -- and people seemed to get a little angry about it. It was hard for Ryan because he loved her and he loved the idea.
As you can tell, the show started off in one direction and took a dramatic turn around episode seven -- the homecoming episode. That's when things got significantly wackier. That's when Delta came in for her first guest appearance. That's when Ryan was finally like, "Look, I'm just going to write what I think is funny and what I'm interested in." I still think he manages to do things that are touching and important but I think that he got comfortable with his own voice in the show. The show was originally about the two girls, Sam and Brooke and that's how the WB pushed it -- especially the way it's advertised. In my opinion -- and this is not because I'm a humble supporting player -- I really do believe that the show is a complete ensemble cast. I mean, if you look at our work schedules, there's no one who works significantly less than anyone else. We all are there everyday. And we're all busting our tushes. Like on Ally McBeal, she's in every scene because it's all about her. But this show is about everybody. And we've seen that develop, especially during the second half of last season.
And it doesn't seem like anyone has become a "star" as a result of being on Popular. When people talk about the show they say, "Oh, I love Mary Cherry" or "Nicole rocks" but no one says "I love Leslie Grossman" or "Tammy Sue Baker rocks" or -- well, off the top of my head, I can't even think of names of the actresses who play Sam and Brooke, even though, frankly, it's my job to know this.
I know -- and that's really nice. I think that we're all pretty respectful of each other. In the beginning there was definitely a feeling that it was a vehicle for Sam and Brooke, and when you watch the pilot, I'm technically a guest star and I have, like, one line. And I really felt like was going to be lucky if I get to move on with the show and I was really happy to see that nobody got crushed or pushed to the side. I think everybody has been well represented.
Do you get recognized on the street? Was there a certain point when you realized that you'd become famous? Are you famous?
Well, here's the funny thing: number one, I don't hang out in places where there are a lot of pre-teen girls. You know, particularly because I'm SO OLD. But what's interesting is that everybody gets recognized all the time except me. And I'm not kidding. I mean, obviously Carly [Pope] and Leslie [Bibb] get recognized, but Tammy gets mobbed all the time, Tamara Mello gets mobbed, Sara Rue...I literally have been asked for my autograph three times. It's really not a big deal and it really hasn't changed my life. The most that will happen is a little girl will look at me for a second and think that I'm a camp counselor that she had once or something and then look away. The nice thing is that adults -- who are my peers -- will come up to me and say, "I think your show is so funny" or "me and my friends will get together Thursday nights and watch the show" and that's really nice. The show does well but we're not ER. There aren't thirty million people watching.
The show has a cult following, though.
Yeah, it does, and that makes me happy because everything I've ever liked in my life has been something that has been "culty." I just love John Waters, for instance. And this is the most "John Waters" a television show is going to get. It really hasn't changed my life all that much except for the fact that I'm really busy all the time.
I wonder if that's because your character is such a character. You probably look physically different when you're not "on."
Yeah, and I dress nothing like the character, I don't look anything like her and I don't wear make-up and I think you're right -- there's a certain way I carry myself when I start doing her that's totally different -- not to be too "actor-y."
You don't sound anything like her. You've really created a character.
And I always imagine every dialogue coach in the world just cringing when they hear me speak, because I am in no way attempting to do any authentic Southern accent. You've got to be kidding me. I'm trying to do the worst Southern accent you've ever heard in your life. And I even want to mix a little Baltimore in there. I have as much fun with it as I can. It's like a foreign language. Hence the Latka in my life.
Mary Cherry seems to have changed, albeit in a subtle way. She begins the season as a born-again Christian who Nicole calls, "Sweet as sugar." You almost seem like a dumb blonde. And then the religious aspect of the character seems to take a back seat to your ambition and murderous impulses. Was that something that changed over time? Or is that something that was always there that you were slowly bringing out?
Well, I've got to tell you: Ryan Murphy is such a collaborator and really listened to everything I ever said, and he'd ask me all the time for input. I mean, I hate actors who think that their opinion actually means something. You pretend for a living. Will you shut up and let the writers do their job? Most actors haven't graduated high school.
I don't like to be too much of a talker. I like to just be directed and I like to just read what is written for me. But Ryan really made it clear to me that he was really receptive to me coming up with my own ideas and coming to him with stuff, and he and I are very close friends outside of work so we spend a lot of time together. So when we're out at lunch or whatever, it comes up and we just say to each other, "Wouldn't it be neat if Mary Cherry did this?" "Wouldn't it be hilarious if Mary Cherry did that."
It's really just out of having a really fun conversation. And I'll do anything. They know I'll do anything -- I've looked really disgusting. I had to eat gross dead old lobster. I've had to do a lot of disgusting stuff. There's a really funny gag that I'm not going to tell you about that we just did on this last episode. Let's just say...I have to get a mold of my face done. He knows I'll do anything and he knows I love to do it.
He told us that your part hadn't been written into the script while they were casting. You were improvising at an audition and they wrote Mary Cherry into the show.
I initially read -- and this is hilarious -- for the part of Sam. I was laughing at the audition because I was like, "This is so ridiculous, this is the part of a sixteen-year-old girl." I got really mad at my manager. I was like, "I am never auditioning again for anything this young!"
So I went in and I didn't want the part, so I read her lines like she was being really flip. It was this heavy scene between Sam and Carmen -- a story line that never ended up making it into the show. I read it as if Sam was this really bitchy arrogant popular girl who's really irritated with Carmen, instead of doing it all earnest like everyone else would. I thought that at least I'd amuse myself, because it's so stupid that I'm even here.
So all the producers were there, and the minute I sit down, Ryan was like, "Nice blow out." You know, about my hair? So I was like "thank you." Then he's like, "What clothes do you like to wear?" So I was like, okay, he's clearly homed in on me.
So I did this audition. You see, originally, the way the original script was written, Nicole is supposed to be even prettier than Brooke. She's supposed to be this ice-queen-y, bitchy girl. So they're like, "We re-wrote the part of Nicole. We want you to come in and read for that." So all of a sudden [laughing], Nicole is not quite as pretty as Brooke. That was literally how it was described. So I was like, "I'm going to try to not get angry at that." She was written now as a completely comedic foil to Brooke -- the bitchiest, meanest, but funniest girl. So I read for Nicole, and I ended up going back and back and back. Eventually it was between me and Tammy [Lynn Michaels]. And we were the only people who went to network [the final audition]. Usually, when you audition for the networks, there are five girls up for one part, sometimes four or three. But it was just me and Tammy.
Now I am not a creepy actress who tries to intimidate other people at auditions. I just don't care enough. So Tammy and I actually got along really well. I mean, it was just so nice to have someone to talk to at an audition. It's really angsty and scary to have to go through the audition process -- particularly at Disney and Warner Brothers. When you go in there, there are literally forty executives in suits who are crossing their arms and not smiling. It's really intimidating and it's really hard.
So first you read for the producers?
First you go in, and it's just you and the casting director. Then if they like you, you read for the producers, and you can go back four or five times. Then you go to the studio. And you can go back to the studio a million times. The studio decides if you can go on to network, and then the network decides -- it's the final audition. And it's really rare to have it be between two people. There's usually at least three.
I do the audition. I leave and I literally get the call an hour later. "You didn't get it." And I was like "Fuck, if I don't get this, what the fuck else am I ever going to get?" because this is so my sensibility. Nothing like this is ever going to come along again, and I am never auditioning for one of these high-school shows ever again. "But," they said, "They'd like to have a meeting with you tomorrow so they can create a character for you."
Ryan had gotten the idea of a girl named Mary Cherry. He said he'd gotten the idea for this character. She'd be a girl from Texas. And I was like, "I know exactly what you're talking about."
It really is a total collaboration, but Ryan was the one to come up with the genesis of it and the seed of it. So they wrote me this part. First I was a guest star, and then I was a series regular. I really had to fight to get where I am on that show. It wasn't handed to me. During the pilot, Tammy was very much one of the stars of the show and I was very much a guest star, and I didn't know what my fate was going to be.
Now, you're like Dee on What's Happening. No one cared about Raj, Duane, and Rerun. We all just wanted to see what hilarious thing Dee was going to say.
Oh my God, I love Dee! I had a goldfish, I named Dee after her! I had another one named Duane. That was my favorite show! Wasn't she brilliant? She's a veterinarian now.
Where'd you find that out?
It was in a People Magazine's "Where are they now?" When I was a little girl, I would watch that show literally every single day after school. She was literally a huge inspiration to me -- her little sassy attitude-y self. I LOVED her! Do you remember when she got her report card? And her mama says, "What's wrong with this report card?" And she was like, "Oh, the teacher messed up. Instead of putting all A's, they just wrote my name." Get it?
She got all "Dee"s.
I just loved her. It's funny you mentioned her.
I'm surprised you know who she is.
Are you crazy? What a great show! Remember Little Earl? I loved Little Earl.
Who was Little Earl?
Don't you remember? The boys move into an apartment and the neighbor's name is Earl and the son's name is Little Earl?
Uh. No.
How do you not REMEMBER this? Little Earl was played by a guy named Dave Hollander. He was so brilliant. I can't believe you don't know! When I get a dog, I'm naming it Little Earl. I can't believe you mentioned that show! That was my favorite show.
I think that I've seen every episode of the first season, but then my parents went on this anti-TV kick and I had a TV hourly limit per week, and I think I had to stop watching What's Happening so I could watch another show. That's why I never knew who Little Earl was.
Yeah, well clearly you weren't much of a What's Happening fan!
I guess not.
Go back to the early episodes. Dave Hollander was a genius. He played this totally sassy eight-year-old. But you know a show is on its way out when you bring a little kid in. Then it's over.
I wonder if it's in reruns somewhere.
That would be genius. I really need a daily dose of Facts of Life and What's Happening.
I only have three one hour microcassettes. Let's not go there.
Facts of Life was genius.
You were telling Entertainment Weekly that you'd based the character of Mary Cherry on these rich Christian Texan girls who you'd known...or who your friends knew?
It wasn't actually people I knew. I have a good friend who went to the Hockaday Girls School in Dallas. She went to school with Ross Perot's daughters and I would force her to tell me these genius stories about Hockaday girls, like they would stand up at lunch time and be all, "Y'all, its not funny. There's homeless people? And we need your old clothes! Y'all don't laugh, it's not funny." And I would be like, "Please talk Hockaday to me, I'm depressed." So when I was at that first meeting, I just started channeling everything that she had ever told me about Hockaday girls. So it all happened for a reason -- my forcing her to tell me Hockaday stories.
So you're basically saying that Mary Cherry is one of Ross Perot's daughters?
Yes. Literally, in my mind, that's where she comes from. She is one of Ross Perot's daughters.
That's genius.
You think? That's how I always imagined her.
So have you ever been able to meet any of these girls face-to-face?
No, I've never been to Texas. I drove through Amarillo once on a cross-country car trip, but I don't think that counts. I'm dying to go to Dallas. I mean, I'm dying!
It's funny that you've never been. It's like the character is really based on everyone's idea of Texas, rather than on a real Texan girl. Y'know, based on watching shows like Dallas and stories told by friends of yours. Maybe actual research would ruin your sense of Mary Cherry.
I know. That's what I was thinking. I don't want any reality in here. I mean, I just want it to be my big grandiose dream of what it's like to be from Texas.
Whose idea was it for you to do Barbra Streisand in "Hard On The Outside, Soft In The Middle"?
That was Ryan. Ryan was like, "Can you do Barbra?"
Is Ryan gay, by the way?
Oh, just a little! Just a teensy bit.
So he goes, "Can you do Barbra?" and I go, "No, but I can do a really clichéd New York accent." And he goes, "It doesn't matter, just do it." And it ended up being funny. It ended up working.
It was funny. I had thought -- and I wrote this in one of my recaps -- that you were majorly into musical theater and you had all these gay male friends who you partied with who encouraged you to do Barbra imitations.
[sings] Nicky Arnstein!
Okay, here's the thing. She's actually a close friend of my husband's parents. I've only met her once. But very casually and informally for about two seconds. I've always been in awe of her and really intimidated by her. And particularly because I'm Jewish, she really meant a lot to me as a young Jewish girl who wasn't "five foot two and eyes of blue." As a Jewish girl, you're really raised to worship her.
And I have been surrounded by gay men my entire life. My mother went to architecture school when I was about six years old and they would all come over -- her classmates would always come over to study and it was mostly gay men. I'm telling you that from the time I was six years old, I have always had this connection with gay men. They were the first adults I was ever comfortable with. They were the first adults to ever speak to me like an adult. I loved it. And my mother always said, if there were five thousand people in a room and only one gay man, you two would sniff each other out. In high school I was always going to gay bars and all my best friends were gay and older. And so I was always surrounded by gay men.
So the truth is -- as clichéd as it is -- the myth of Barbra was something that was always around me. But its truly more about her being Jewish than about being a gay icon.
And you know Ryan got me and my husband tickets to see her. We're all going to go to THE LAST CONCERT. But you know it's not her last concert. She's such a liar.
So, speaking of gay things...Mary Cherry and Lily seem to be on the verge of sleeping together.
Okay, first off, can I just say that Tamara [Mello] is just so fabulous? I know that it sounds like such bullshit to say this about someone I work with, but I really have a special bond with Tamara. I really love her and adore her, and she is so much fun to work with. And she's so bright and she's so funny and we have such a good time together.
I think that with Mary Cherry, there are no rules. And the question of Lily's sexuality has already been raised on the show. Mary Cherry doesn't care. There is no judgment. There are no boundaries. She just wanted to have the most outrageous Hester Prynne slip in "Caged." And I think she would sleep with Lily if that made her more popular or more distinctive or glamorous. And meanwhile it's so horrifying to Lily. It's so disgusting and awful to her. It's funny to keep pushing that joke because they're perfect foils for each other. We're physically the opposite of each other, and we're like black-and-white and we have so much fun working together. So that was great fun. I loved doing that, I loved hinting that maybe...you know.
But she's so disgusted by me, she'd never have an affair with me. But I think Mary Cherry would be like, "Whatever. I'm not picky. A girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do." So I just love that. I love that lezzie undertone that goes on between those too.
Oh, but I think Lily likes her back in a secretive self-loathing kinda way.
I would absolutely LOVE it if they would do a story line where we go on a date. That would be so fucking brilliant, wouldn't you?
Totally. And wouldn't it be great if it were a really awful date? Like they had nothing to talk about and you were being this total guy and just kept staring at her breasts and not making eye contact with her?
And there's that total first date creepyness? I would love that. I've gotta tell Ryan about that.
And Monday in school, Mary Cherry would brag to everybody that she'd gone to third base with Lily and Lily would be horrified.
She'd be like, "You did not, you were a total bore!" Oh god, I've gotta tell Ryan that. I hope you don't mind.
Not at all.
Although, I can't talk about it too much, but I think I'm going to have my first romantic storyline with someone else who is also a cast member.
Male or female?
Male.
Would that be Joe [Harrison]?
Mmmmaybe.
Excuse me, I know this is rude and we're on tape but I'm eating a sandwich here. I'm the only actress you'll ever meet who actually eats.