"Real" is the most overused and clichéd adjective I can think of to describe an actress, but it is literally the best word I can think of to describe Karina Arroyave. When I say that Karina is "real," I'm not talking about a Kevin Sessums reality where it's like, "She met me at a diner in a vintage leather jacket, smoked Marlboro Lights the entire time, and was super-nice to the waitress who asked her for an autograph." Karina is simply a professional actress. She reminds me of one of those girls who went to my high school and was more concerned with getting into Julliard than moving to L.A. and dating a casting director. But unlike the girls who went to my high school, Karina isn't one of those "the-a-tah people" that set my teeth on edge. She's really shy and sweet and -- as you can see -- put up with my annoying questions over the phone for over an hour with barely a complaint.
Karina: Wait, so how are you taping this? How are you getting my voice on tape?
Gustave: I'm using a tape recorder that hooks up to my phone. I've got the same set-up that Linda Tripp had.
Oh god! I won't be telling you anything that juicy, unfortunately.
Did you see the HBO Monica documentary?
No.
Come to think of it, you're the Linda Tripp of 24.
I don't even know what to say to that.
I mean your character.
Oh, I know.
But it's funny. Because I'm recapping the show and because I used to work in the industry myself, I'm usually hyper-aware of how a show is made and that it's not "real life." But when I was preparing questions to ask you, all I could think to ask was stuff like, "How could you betray your country like that?" I hope you take that as a supreme compliment in that you've totally disappeared into your role. You can't see the "performance."
Oh, thank you! I've had experiences where people approach me as though I'm certain characters that they've seen me play. When I don't respond as those characters, they're really surprised. I've done a couple of characters that were kind of, um, street…
Yeah, it says in your bio that you were in three "dedicated teacher films" where the teacher tries to get the inner-city students to want to learn.
[laughs] Oh yeah. So sometimes people come up to me on the street like I'm…
Rosie Perez?
Exactly. So when I respond as myself…it just hasn't been a good situation. [laughs] Actually that was one of my concerns when I found out I was the mole. I was really concerned with the audience not liking me because I know that a lot of people have a hard time separating the character from the actor. I talked to Stephen [Hopkins, the director and executive producer of 24] about it and I said, "Can't we make it that her son is very sick?" With the way it was written, I thought that she still comes off pretty bad.
In the first episode, you had these pigtails and a leather jacket and you were chewing gum and being all sassy…
I was chewing gum?
Okay, maybe I imagined that. But you were kind of "street." You were this "Latina spitfire." Then all of a sudden you were this conservative office person.
Jamey wasn't a spitfire in the first episode. I think the only thing that gave that impression was that Jamey had just come from a nightclub.
Oh!
And they never really say that or make that clear. The only reference is when Nina says, "Are we interrupting your social life?" and I say, "At least I have a social life." So that's why I looked that way in the pilot. And they couldn't have me looking that way for the whole show because it wasn't that professional.
When I found out that the pilot had been picked up and stuff, I said to myself, I want to do something different with this because it's unlike anything I've ever done. I didn't want her to be a stereotypical Latin character and I was finally given the opportunity to do something different. I had been dying to do something different. I cannot stress that enough. So I purposefully underplayed her because in previous work I'd done, I'd been sort of…intense. I didn't want to be intense with her. I want her to be normal. And actually that was a challenge for me. I didn't find out how challenging something like that could be until I did this Touched By An Angel episode where things don't get rough for my character until the end. For most of the show she's this normal lady and she's happy and everything, and that was a challenge for me. So that's why I said that Jamey wasn't a spitfire. [laughs] I've played that before so I was making a conscious effort to do something different.
How did you hear about the part and how did you get it?
It was a last-minute thing. I found out at eleven that morning that I had an audition at two and I had another audition to go to, so there was no time to do anything but go and pick up the material and just show up. My audition was only a couple of lines.
What were the lines?
They were later re-written out of the script. I don't even remember. [laughs] I saw the character description and I just kind of laughed. I was like [sarcastically], "Yeah, right, I'll get this."
What was the character description?
She was supposed to be a sexy girl wearing overalls…and nothing on underneath. [laughs]
[laughs] I'm sorry, everyone in that office is dressed insanely!
And they describe her as having a tattoo of an anaconda on her neck.
Wow.
So I was like, okay, I'll just go in and do my best. I mean, that's usually how I approach everything.
Was she even supposed to be Latin?
No. And that's what really appealed to me. After countless roles where I'm either a gang girl or I'm being questioned by the police…
And you're a sweatshop worker in The Cowboy Way.
Exactly. I mean, it's great to be working at all, but after a while you just go, "Is there anything else out there?" I mean, you know you can do it.
So Jamey's "street," but she's not necessarily "Bronx street."
I would describe her as "hip." They definitely wanted that quality. So I felt stupid even being at this audition. While I was waiting to go in, I noticed this gorgeous, tall, blonde woman walking out of the casting director's office and I was like, "What am I doing here?" [laughs] That was just something I happened to notice. Usually when I'm waiting to audition, I try to stay in my own little world. So I go in, and Stephen [Hopkins] was there and the casting director and someone else -- I can't even remember now -- but it went well. When I left, I felt like I had been real. So I was like, "Cool…whatever." But I didn't really think too much about it. So the next day I got this call that I'd gotten the part.
Wow. They didn't even bring you in endlessly for callbacks or get final network approval?
No. They were like, "Oh yeah, that show 24 wants you." I said, "Are you kidding me?" And they were like, "No…and you start tomorrow." So I was like, "Uh, okay." They couldn't even get a script to me. I had to go in the next day and begin shooting and I hadn't even seen a script.
I read some interview with Sarah Clarke [Nina] where they said they didn't even have a costume for her, so she ended up wearing her own outfit.
Right! She and I were both in wardrobe together, trying on stuff. We were going nuts. The clock was ticking and we were like, "Okay, try this…try this. What about this?…Can you sew this?…Can you sew that?" I remember saying to Sarah, "Hey, I'm just along for the ride." I didn't have time to get nervous. I just buckled my seat belt and said, "Let's go." [laughs]
So when did they tell you that you were the mole?
Not for a while, but they kept dropping hints. During the third episode, we were doing a scene, and Stephen looks at me and Sarah and says [imitating Stephen's British accent], "Now, one of you is the mole." And I was like, "What?" [laughs] I thought to myself, there's no way it's me. That's just too juicy. And I couldn't really think too hard about it either because even if I was the mole, there's no way I could play her as the mole.
Yeah, I mean, what are you supposed to do? Rub your hands together in front of your computer and cackle?
Yeah! So that was my first clue. Two episodes went by and the crew -- they're the first ones to see the scripts -- started saying stuff to me, but no one would really verify it. It was driving me crazy. I kept asking people, "What's going on? Am I the bad guy?" No one would give me a straight answer.
It's kind of brilliant of them to keep you hanging, when you think about it. I mean, there's nothing in your performance that suggests that you are the mole, and for those of us at home watching and trying to predict what's going on, it's a complete surprise. So when did they officially verify it?
During the seventh episode, when Teri calls Jamey from Mulholland Drive, it becomes clear. They told me while we were shooting the episode before that one. One of the writers came up to me, introduced himself and said, "Well, I gotta tell you that you're the bad guy." So I said, "But I should just keep playing her like she's not, right?" And he said, "Absolutely."
You have to act ambiguous a lot. When Milo gets put on the key card, your motivation could be interpreted in two ways. On the one hand, you could simply be insulted that you're being "replaced" by a temp who thinks he's more qualified than you are. But on the other hand, you might be simply worried that your cover is being blown. How did you play that?
I kept getting these notes that I was supposed to be more upset about it. But I didn't want to make her more upset, because I didn't want to give anything away.
So when did the writers know that you were the mole?
They're making it up as they go along. They hadn't decided all that long before they told me.
Is making 24 more like doing a TV show or making several movies?
It's so different from anything I've ever done before, I really couldn't say. I mean, in a way it's more like making a movie but on the other hand, it's being made up as you go along. When you're doing a film, there's a script, you know the ending and you can track the "arc" as an actor. I couldn't do that with Jamey because I didn't have all the information.
I notice that there's a uniformity to all of your performances. You are all so internal and introverted. It's unusually subtle acting for television. It's more like film acting. How are you all being directed?
I think that we were all chosen for the cast for that very reason in the first place. That's what kind of actors we all are. I know from talking to Sarah and Carlos [Bernard, who plays Tony] that we all have the mentality that less is more.
But Stephen is such a great director. I can't stress that enough. He's so smart and creative. His mind is always going.
In my final scenes, I was very concerned with the audience not liking me. So I kept trying to play her really sweet. [laughs] Stephen would take me aside and say, "Now she's got to get really angry at some point. You're making her all sweet like an angel and no one is going to believe she did this. You've got to put out a performance that will make people believe that you went out and did this really bad thing." It was a real struggle for him because [laughs] I really didn't want people to not like me. All that harshness that goes on at the end is totally thanks to him. He really took me through that.
You know that scene where Kiefer calls me up to his office and we are trying to figure out if Nina is a traitor or not? When we were rehearsing it, I was being myself. And I'm very gentle and non-confrontational with people. So Stephen was like, "She's got to get an answer from Kiefer and he's trying not to have to make a decision. She's got to be tough on him. Also keep in mind that she's extremely smart so we need to keep seeing that your mind is working." That was the most awesome direction, because then I was able to play the scene. He's so good.
Some critic -- I forget who -- wrote that the plotline itself is the other lead character besides Kiefer. Do you ever feel like your own acting is being hampered or upstaged by the plotline? Do you ever feel like you have to have to gloss over an authentic experience in your performance in order to create suspense or get the timing right?
Yeah. There are times when I feel that way. I was a little frustrated with my final scenes. I wanted her to come off better, but that wasn't good for the overall plot. Jamey honestly didn't know anything. She didn't know who Gaines was and she really didn't know what he was using this information for. So when she says this, I think a lot of viewers thought she was lying or making excuses.
Oh, and when Jamey finds out that Walsh gets killed, I thought that that was a big deal and I probably should have had a much bigger reaction. But because that scene isn't about me, I had to play it within that context.
I don't think it came off as inauthentic, though. A lot of people on the forums were wondering what was up with you too. There was even some talk of Walsh still being alive and you having some sort of special knowledge of that because your reaction was so subdued. A lot of people were wondering what was really going on between the two of you.
The way I understood it, he recruited me. He was a father figure to me. He took me under his wing and gave me this great job. That's how I played it.
On the Fox site, it says that Jamey was fired from Microsoft because of some security issue. Is that kind of information available to you before you go on the set?
No. Someone made all of that up later. They're going, "What would be a cool background for this character…oh, I know, she was fired from Microsoft!" That's all that is.
But it does explain why you'd be the mole -- because you're stuck in this job and you're smart enough to do all of this subterfuge…
Yeah, but that's just a coincidence. That background was written before the writers even knew I was the mole. When you think about it, everyone at CTU has a motive for being the mole.
I thought it was entirely possible that she was telling the truth about being unaware of what she was doing. A lot of so-called "terrorists" are brought into these organizations without even realizing who they're working for. They're told to deliver a box somewhere and they have no idea what's inside…
You know, that's exactly how Stephen described it to me. She really didn't know anything. She really needed some money and someone -- Gaines -- contacted me about tapping into the surveillance system and I had no idea about what the ramifications would be. And then once I did one job for him, he had me. So then he tried to get more information out of me. I say that in my defense, but it's never really proven.
Are you getting recognized more, now that you've done this?
Yeah.
What's that like? How do people react to you?
It's nice, but I'm a private person and when I get recognized I feel very exposed all of a sudden. My first instinct is to retreat. I hope that no one interprets that as anything but…that. I'm really weird about that. [laughs]
I don't think it's weird at all. I would totally be creeped out if strangers walked up to me on the street thinking that they knew me. And I've heard that people act really familiar toward you if you're on television. It's like they think you've been inside their homes every week.
Right. I mean, it's great because it means that people are watching the show. And everyone has been really nice. Overall, it's a good thing.
Has anyone come up to you and said, "How could you betray your country?"
Actually, no. I've gotten a few people who've said, "We miss you." It's strange.
That's what we're all saying on the forums. It's funny. People get very emotionally involved in the show, and if there's any character that people hate it's either Spawn for being so stupid and codependent or Soul Patch for being so nosy and lazy. I mean, technically, Jamey did more damage but people had a lot more affection for her.
Really? That's so sweet!
You know, this interview is great because your questions aren't typical. Usually I'm being asked stuff like…
"What it's like to work with Kiefer"?
Yeah!
Uh, sorry, but my next question was going to be, what's it like to work with Kiefer? I'm so sorry! My readers will literally kill me if I don't ask.
[laughs] He's terrific in so many ways. It's an honor to get to watch him. He's really so good. I was trying to figure out what makes him so good and I realized that it was because everything he does is so specific. Every single line has so much meaning. You can tell that he's just made a choice about everything. And he takes everything to a heightened level.
He's very intense. You are all intense. I mean, I guess that's a contradiction to what we were saying earlier about you being less "intense" as Jamey, but I guess I mean that it's not an extroverted intensity…
Exactly. That's why this part is perfect. I'm a very serious person. Although I hope I get to do a comedy at some point. I need to lighten up here, do you know what I mean? [laughs]
Are you getting parts now that are more like Jamey?
No. I'm not getting any parts. [laughs] I went to one audition -- it was a really bad mix-up. It was for a comedy, but my agent told me that the part I was up for was a lot like Jamey. The casting people literally had said to her that they wanted someone like Jamey. I was like, "For a comedy? Are you shitting me?" [laughs] I was so confused. So I go in there and I'm all serious and stuff even though I feel ridiculous about it because it's a comedy. So then it turns out that they wanted someone who looked like Jamey from the first episode. It was totally whacked.
The only thing I've done since 24 has been an episode of Family Law. I got that -- coincidentally -- the day after my last day on 24. But hey, the search continues. The struggle continues.
I'd imagine, though, that you'd be up for more stuff simply because you're more visible now.
The best thing about 24 is that my confidence level is up. I've never been a regular on a show before. Soaps don't count. They're a totally different thing. But now I know that I can handle a regular part and I can take that confidence into an audition for another role.
So what is it like on the set? Is it intense?
No. It's the opposite! [laughs] Well, except when I was going through all that emotional stuff at the end. I wasn't talking to anyone and I went back into my "shell" mode. But before that, I'd goof around a lot -- especially with Carlos. We'd play games and joke around. It was that kind of an atmosphere. It was a very fun, light atmosphere. Stephen is like that too. It was a great place to be. The crew was fun. There was not one negative element on that set.
Did they hire you for a specific number of episodes? Did you know you were being killed off at some point?
No. Not me. Some people knew when they were being killed off, but my part was open. I was always prepared for the possibility. I'd totally cringe when I read the scripts. I'd be like, "Is this the one where I bite it?"
So you knew you were going to die eventually?
No. I didn't.
When did you find out?
One week before we shot my final episode.
So all of a sudden, you're like, "Damn, I'm out of a job."
It was a lot more than that. This was more than a job to me. I don't mean to sound melodramatic, but it was pretty devastating. The set was such a great place to be. They were like my second family. Also, I loved playing that character more than any other character I've played. I literally miss Jamey.
What was your work schedule like?
Some days were really long. Like, sometimes we'd have to get all the scenes that took place at CTU done within three days. But then I'd get entire days off, because during the rest of the week they'd be doing the scenes that took place at the other locations like the Palmer suite, for instance.
Did you have any idea how good the show was going to be?
When I read the script of the pilot, I was bummed that I didn't have the next episode. I read it and I was like, "Well, what happens? I gotta see that next script!" [laughs] I just knew that the writing was terrific because it left me wanting more. I knew that I loved the pilot. And I knew that the acting going on around me was really good.
But usually, I can't get too concerned with how good the show will turn out. If I think about that too much, I'll get tripped up. The only I thing I can handle is worrying about my performance and then everything else is beyond my control. I try not to think about it.
In general, how different is the finished product from the original script that you're given?
Certain episodes went through a lot of changes. Certain ones didn't. I can't remember everything that changed but I know, for instance, that they rewrote my character so that she was a lot more sympathetic. Originally, she was just psychotic, and her reasons for doing what she did were motivated by revenge as opposed to needing money for her son. She mostly had issues about the fact that she had less power than anyone else.
So she was really more like Linda Tripp? [laughs]
[laughs] Yeah. I was terrified, because I was like, "How am I going to play this? She's nuts!"
It's interesting because on most television shows -- take Family Ties, for instance -- when someone becomes a big star or they notice that certain plotlines are more popular with the viewers, the writers will cater to that. Originally, Family Ties was supposed to be this vehicle for Meredith Baxter Birney, but then Michael J. Fox got so popular that the show became about him. And then they made Mallory really stupid. There doesn't seem to be much of that happening on 24 because the plotline is the most important thing.
Yeah, it's like a pure art form. And that's why it's easier for them to kill people off.
Right, like they had Brenda move to London on 90210 because they had fired Shannon Doherty, but they never would have had Brenda leave just to make some artistic statement.
I think it's admirable.
Did you read the Wired article about how the bad guys use PCs and the good guys use Macs, and since you were using a Dell, it was clear that you were the mole?
I never read anything about the show. I can't go there. I'm always afraid I'll read something negative and I won't be able to leave the house. I have to just think about the work. And that's a total coincidence, by the way. As I said, the writers didn't know I was the mole for a while, and I've been using the same computer the whole time.
Where did you study acting?
The Performing Arts High School.
You mean, Fame?
Yeah.
So you grew up in Manhattan?
I live there now. That's my home. I'm just here in L.A. now trying to get work. I don't really live here.
Where do you live?
Midtown.
What's your address? Can I stalk you?
[laughs] Sure.
Have you ever had stalkers?
Uh, yeah. But not, like, professional stalkers or anything. Just -- you know -- ex-boyfriends. [laughs]
Don't you just hate that? When it's not even about the work?
[laughs] Oh I know!
Did you know Jennifer Lopez?
Why would I know Jennifer Lopez?
Because she went to the Fame school too. And she'd probably be your year.
Oh! I thought you were asking because, uh…
Because I thought you might have met her at those top-secret Latina actress Mafia meetings?
[laughs] Exactly. But she didn't go to Performing Arts.
Really? I could have sworn she went to the Fame school. She says she did in interviews. Do you know where she went to high school?
Uh, no.
You never discussed it at those Latina thespian sorority meetings with Rosie Perez and Salma Hayek?
[laughs] NO! Maybe she went to another Performing Arts High School. Maybe there's one in the Bronx where she grew up?
No. That was the whole meaning behind her album "On the 6" She'd take the 6 train from the Bronx into Manhattan to go the Performing Arts High School.
Well, she wasn't there.
I guess she's lying. Jeez! [laughs] So what was Performing Arts like?
It was terrific. It was great to act for half the day and even longer when we'd have to stay after school and rehearse -- because, that was my life.
Just drama? No dance or anything like that?
Well, we all had to take dance lessons as part of the curriculum but I'm not a dancer or anything.
I'd have thought you had a dance background. You have a dancer's body.
I can move [laughs] but I'm not really trained. I mean, I love to dance -- like at clubs and stuff -- but I never pursued it as a career or anything.
So after high school, you just started working?
Sort of. I was trained primarily in theater, and when I got out into the real world, I started auditioning right away because I got an agent through my high school. But the auditions were mostly for television and film, so I had to learn television and film acting on my own. And it's a totally different technique. So I didn't work for a while because I didn't know what I was doing. I picked up a lot from the audition process, though, and a year later, I got cast in Lean On Me.
You were on As The World Turns for five years.
I played Bianca Marquez. They have a fictitious Latin American country on the show called Montega.
Fantastic!
So she takes this boat over, because her parents have been killed and she needs to find this man that she used to work for back in Montega. So she works for him for a while, and then she gets adopted by this wealthy woman named Lucinda Walsh.
Ah, so that's how you became Bianca Marquez Walsh!
Exactly. It was kind of a rags-to-riches story with her. But it was great because I was working practically every day. And I met one of my best friends on that set. We're still the best of friends.
And then you were in Cowboy Way with Kiefer. Did you meet him then?
Yeah, I met him then. And then on my first day on 24, I walked up to him and I said, "Um, we've worked together before," and he was like, "Yeah! I knew you looked familiar! I was looking at you and thinking, 'I know her.'" So, yeah, he remembered me from that. I was so psyched.
Aw! Actually, I had thought that maybe you had been cast in 24 because you'd remained friends with Kiefer.
No. It was just a coincidence.
Who are your friends? Like, do you know any famous people? Jeez, could I be any more superficial?
[laughs] I don't know anyone.
Does your agent ever try to get you to schmooze with or date famous people?
I wouldn't work with an agent who told me to do that. [laughs] I'm very much not in the "industry." It's just my job. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not real. What's real to me is life outside of that. And then that's what you bring to the work.
I mean, there's a part of me that feels like I can't do this because I'm not savvy like that. I don't enjoy being a part of the "industry." But it's my passion, so I found a way to be in it without being in it.
That's amazing.
Thank you. It took a long time for me to figure how to work in an industry where there are a lot things in it that I don't agree with. But at the same time, what I do love about it is that sometimes you get to produce some amazing art. Like, I went to see Monster's Ball the other day and I thought, "Okay, this is what's good about the industry."
So what is your favorite movie?
I wouldn't see it over and over again or anything, but I loved Schindler's List. I don't know of any other movie that knocked the wind out of me the way that Schindler's List did. And I have to say that Monster's Ball is pretty high up there too. That's the best movie I've seen in a long time.
Who is your favorite actor or actress?
Billy Bob Thornton and Meryl Streep. Especially Meryl Streep. She's just so good.
I don't even know how to phrase this question intelligently, but what is it like being a Latina actress when you're not a total diva? I mean, you work, so obviously you're not being shut out of the industry completely but…
It's been very limiting. [thinks for a moment] I mean, it doesn't seem like it's been limiting. It seems like it's been helpful.
Because you have a "niche"?
Yeah. Although I get really infuriated when people say that, because it hasn't been helpful at all. For every -- I'd say -- twenty projects, there's only one I could go in on. But if I was more, um, "mainstream," I'd have a lot more opportunities.
Do you still keep in touch with anyone from the 24 cast?
Mostly Carlos. He's great. He's just a very real guy. There's nothing "actor-y" about him. That's why I like him so much.
Do you watch the show? Do you sit down on Tuesday nights and watch it?
Honestly? I can't watch it. When I was on, I'd watch. I mean, I had to because I'm always trying to evaluate my performances so I can try to do better. Now it's too hard. It's too painful. I had to move on. I wish I could watch it. I'd like to know what's going on, but it's tough for me. It's kind of like a divorce, do you know what I mean? You can't just keep seeing each other. [laughs]
Well, maybe Jamey has a twin sister…
Yeah, one who wasn't a traitor!