This is the true story... of two strangers... scheduled to speak on the phone... and have their conversation taped... to find out what happens when one-half of the duo that jump-started reality TV's massive success gets real...about getting real.
The seeds of today's "unscripted" programming may have been planted in the notorious 1973 PBS documentary An American Family, but it was producers Mary-Ellis Bunim and Jonathan Murray who truly changed American television in 1992 with a new series on MTV called The Real World, a full eight years before reality TV went prime-time thanks to the likes of Mr. Mark Burnett, Mr. Simon Cowell, and Mr. Joe Millionaire. Although Bunim passed away in 2004, her partner continues to oversee their company's ever-expanding slate of reality shows, creating new concepts and refreshing old ones for a seemingly insatiable audience (and an even hungrier industry). We spoke to Jon Murray shortly after his most famous hit reached a new milestone.
TWoP: Why has The Real World lasted 20 seasons and 16 years, longer than any other reality show so far and certainly longer than anything else you've worked on?
JM: The same things that [people in] conventional television would say wouldn't have made the show a success, have actually made the show a success. When we first put The Real World on the air, you never changed your cast every season; you never changed your location every season. In fact, we were very scared when we went from Season 1 to 2 that people were so attached to Julie, Heather, Eric, and the group that they somehow wouldn't be interested in watching Jon, Tami, Dave, and that group. But as it turned out, what we discovered is that in the reality television world, while the audience does form emotional bonds with the cast members and with the story that you're telling, they're always ready for a new cast and new stories.
TWoP: Why do you think so many critics and other cultural arbiters still have a negative attitude towards reality TV as a whole?
JM: That's a good question. There definitely is a snotty attitude by some critics towards reality. I don't know if they just feel an allegiance to their brethren who script shows -- I'm not sure. I think there's room for both. Some stories are better told in the unscripted world and some are better told in the scripted world.
TWoP: Is getting the casting right 90 percent of what makes an unscripted show successful or not?
JM: On a show like The Real World, the kids move into the house and then you step back and shoot what happens. And if you don't have a game to rely on, your cast is going to give you your story and they're going to give you the rooting interest. So to me, it all begins with the cast. If you don't have a good cast and a good concept, you don't have a show.
TWoP: When you see an audition tape from a Puck, a Tonya, a Trishelle, or any of the other memorable Real World personalities, is it immediately obvious that this person is going to be compelling to watch each week?
JM: It's not always that clear. We're pretty good at assessing if someone has charisma; if they're the kind of person that, when you're switching channels, makes you want to stop because there's something about them -- either their look or the way they express themselves. But ultimately, you don't know when those seven people move in together how they're going to affect each other. That's part of the excitement of the show: You're not necessarily sure Puck is going to be Puck when he shows up.
TWoP: Do you worry that because of the ubiquity of reality TV, the people you're casting may be too familiar with the conventions of the genre to be truly "real" on camera?
JM: That's definitely something you have to look out for during the casting process. And that's why our casting process is three months long [and] each person undergoes at least three or four interviews. We call a lot of their friends, and some of their enemies, to try to really get a real sense of who they are, so we know if they're giving us performance or if they're just being who they are. People use to say to me, "Oh that Puck, he just gave a performance." Well, if you knew Puck you'd know that wasn't a performance, that's just who he is.
TWoP: Was setting the current season of The Real World in Hollywood an acknowledgment of the conventional wisdom that many of the people who get on reality TV really just want to get into show business?
JM: Yes. We decided in a sense to give in to the fact that there are a lot of people interested in the entertainment business. In that very first season of The Real World, most of those cast members were in New York to pursue something in entertainment, so with Hollywood, we decided to go back to our roots.
TWoP: Earlier seasons of The Real World were much more overtly focused on social issues and raising the consciousness of both the cast members and the audience. Now the show concentrates on personal issues and romantic relationships. Was this a natural evolution, or was it a deliberate creative decision on the production's part?
JM: I don't know... In the Denver season, which was fairly recently, we had them participating in Outward Bound, working with children from New Orleans. I will tell you that for those specific episodes, the ratings would plunge every time those came on. I will also tell you that our lowest-rated Road Rules season was the one where we did Semester at Sea. So I think that, for the most part, the audience wants to be entertained, and that has to be the first goal. If a pro-social aspect comes out of something a character is struggling with or dealing with, and we can handle it in a responsible manner, it can have a positive effect. But if you try to engineer it or stick something down people's throats, like Outward Bound, they tend not to want to watch it.
TWoP: When The Real World started, the Internet barely existed. Now, the vast majority of your target audience is online. How has getting immediate feedback about every single minute of every single episode helped you or informed you?
JM: I'm trying to remember the first season where we had the message boards on MTV.com... It was interesting because you'd be able to go on there and see what people were talking about in relation to the show, but I tried not to take it too seriously because I'm not sure how representative the Internet sampling is. You do tend to get people on there who like to go on and basically criticize the show, and tend to be more negative than maybe the typical viewer. Certainly the first few seasons we got a lot of letters from kids about the show, and they would write to specific cast members they identified with. Now, we have something called RealWorldDailies.com where, in addition to putting up new clips every day of stuff that happened, whether it ended up in the show or not, we also have cast members online responding to comments from the Internet audience. I always felt that one of the strengths of reality television is that the people in it are real, the stuff that happens to them is real, and therefore our audience often wants to ask those cast members questions about that real stuff that they went through. So certainly the Internet gives you a real opportunity for dialogue between them.
TWoP: Over the years, have there been any cast members that you've personally identified with more than others, or rooted for more than others?
JM: I think that whenever you choose a cast member you choose them because you like them and because you do care about them.
TWoP: So there wasn't anyone that you disliked but thought made great television, even though you were personally repelled by them as a human being?
JM: I've never been repelled by any of our cast members. In the scripted world, a villain is someone you love to hate and I think that's partially true in the reality world. Whether it's the Omarosa or the Puck, there has to be something likable about them. They have to be more than just a black and white villain. There were people who absolutely loved Puck, whereas there were other people who couldn't stand him. The best characters are all complex and have a combination of things that make you like them one moment and dislike them the moment.
TWoP: Is it becoming more and more difficult with each passing season to find a location for The Real World? You've done so many already that you're starting to repeat yourself. You've done New York twice; you're now in L.A. for the second time. Is it tough to find new, interesting places that work for the show?
JM: We've realized that we are going to go back to quite a few places that we've been to before because those tend to be the cities that young people want to migrate to, and I think there has to be a certain fantasy to the city that our viewers are interested in seeing. It's more important that the city be that fantasy destination than be a city that we haven't been to.
TWoP: How did you think the recent special The Real World Awards Bash turned out?
JM: I was really happy with it. I thought the show was fresh and fun. It would've been boring to see all of these cast members seated in an auditorium, like it was the Oscars or something. It was great to see cast members meet cast members they'd never met before; it was great to see them catch up with old friends.
TWoP: Was there anyone there that you hadn't seen in awhile that surprised you in terms of how they turned out?
JM: Well, it's funny, I didn't recognize Eric Nies at first. He has a beard and long hair. I was just like, "Who is that?"
TWoP: Are there certain folks that have just completely fallen out of touch with you and the production company? I'm thinking of people like Andre from Season 1 or Aaron from Season 2, whom fans are still curious about but that we didn't see on the Awards Bash or any reunions or RW/RR Challenges.
JM: There are some people who did The Real World, had a great time doing it, but then went on with their lives in whatever direction they had already planned. I respect that decision. I'm happy with cast members, however they choose to lead their lives.
TWoP: In addition to working on shows like The Real World, you've done series involving celebrities or known personalities like Paris Hilton (The Simple Life) and Kim Kardashian (Keeping Up With the Kardashians). What are the biggest differences between doing an unscripted show with someone who's just a young unknown and with somebody who's already in the business?
JM: Well, they're not going to want you follow them into the bathroom, or into the shower. [Laughs] I think there are certain areas of privacy that they expect -- that's primarily it. They just have certain areas that they really don't want to be part of the show. So I think you have to have a clear understanding going into it of what you are able to shoot and what you're not able to shoot.
TWoP: Are celebrities in a way more open on camera because they're so used to being on camera, or are they more guarded because they have more to protect?
JM: It's hard to generalize. I find the Kardashians very open to the camera, and I've found other celebrities to be more cautious.
TWoP: Moving on to The Bad Girls Club on Oxygen, it's amazing how addictive the show has been this year thanks to the new cast, particularly Tanisha. When you were watching the dailies and there was that moment when Tanisha said "Pop off!" maybe 20 times in a row, was that when you realized this season was going to so much bigger than before?
JM: Yeah, it was pretty clear that Tanisha in particular was a real breakout star and it was pretty clear early on that there was just more conflict this season. I think the challenge and the question we had was: Would these characters be affected by their time together? Would there be growth? And I think as viewers watch the last few episodes play out, they'll see that there was.
TWoP: On that serious note, some of these women do have major issues in their lives that they're dealing with. Is there any sort of counseling support that your company provides off-camera either during the shoot or after the shoot, or do you just let it play out the way it plays out?
JM: If they're interested in help, we tend to offer it to them. Sometimes that help can take place on camera, sometimes it can't, depending on the wishes of the therapist or the counselor. I know Darlen went through some counseling. I think Andrea went through some counseling for the eating disorder. So it just depends on each situation.
TWoP: There's certainly been a lot of pushing and shoving, hair-pulling, and threats of violence on BGC this season. How do you know when it's time for someone from behind the camera to step in and break it up? Is there a particular line that has to be crossed?
JM: The guiding principle [for] all of our directors is that we don't want anybody to get hurt -- seriously hurt. It's a television show, ultimately, and that's why we will step in when we see that someone could get hurt. But it's a gray line and the person on that [shoot] has to make that judgment call.
TWoP: Will The Bad Girls Club return for a third season?
JM: We hope so! I think this season is running about 15 percent over last season, though Tuesdays are a tough night. But when your show increases ratings it usually gets you another season.
TWoP: Would you consider moving the show to another city, or is Los Angeles really the perfect location?
JM: L.A. is the place, plus with the show's budget, we need to shoot it in a town where our crew sleeps in their own beds. We don't have the budget to take it somewhere else where we'd have to bring crews into town and put them up.
TWoP: Would The Bad Girls Club work on a network other than Oxygen as The Bad Boys Club?
JM: I don't know... I find that men tend not to be as interested or as open. Women are more likely to want to improve their lives; they want to see if they can grow from an experience. Guys are usually less interested in that stuff. If guys have a problem, a lot of times they'd rather not talk about it. They'd rather avoid the conflict, whereas women seem much more open to conflict; much more open to feeling that they have to be heard.
TWoP: Could The Real World, Bad Girls Club, or other candid reality TV shows be what they are without the presence of alcohol? Many of the most talked-about moments on shows like yours involve cast members who are not quite themselves, let's just say.
JM: Well, we don't provide the alcohol for our shows. If someone wants alcohol, they go out and buy it. In real life, people tend to use alcohol to loosen up a little and reality TV participants are no different. We're not going to tell them they can't have alcohol. They're adults, they have to make that decision.
TWoP: So when they move into the house, the refrigerator is not stocked with booze?
JM: We don't put drinks into houses. They have to go out and buy their own.
TWoP: For economic reasons if nothing else, do you see reality becoming the dominant TV genre, at least in terms of volume, in the coming years?
JM: No, I don't. I think there should be a healthy mix of scripted and unscripted. But some cable channels will tend to use more reality television because of the economics of it.
TWoP: What other projects are you and Bunim/Murray working on?
JM: We have some cool shows on the air right now that we're excited about. There's a show on DirecTV called Supreme Court of Comedy where we have real litigants in small-claims court with comedians arguing the cases. Living Lohan will be on E! later this year, which we're excited about. But most of the other stuff is in development or at the point where the networks don't want us talking about it.
TWoP: And we'll see another season of The Real World in 2008?
JM: I hope so. We shall see.