I interviewed Penny Johnson Jerald again last month, before the Emmy nominations were announced. We spoke over the phone while she was taking a break from running her theater company.
Gustave: What are you doing next season?
Penny Johnson Jerald: I challenge you to call Joel Surnow and ask him that same question.
Well, that's the nature of the question -- what are you being told?
[laughs] I don't want to be told too much. I like to be told enough. I want to place myself as an artist, and I don't want to disappoint the fans. It's the word of mouth, I avoid. These people who are tuning in who say, "I don't watch television but…" It makes you feel so wonderful inside because you're getting feedback from the average person who owes you absolutely nothing. They don't have to comment. I could step outside of my house, walk into a place, and they're right there. They always ask for an autograph. I always say no but I say, "If you give me your address, I'll give you a picture." Because my autograph means nothing.
What was it like to do the second season as opposed to the first season?
I have to say that last year I didn't understand the huge impact that the character was making. As far as I was concerned, I was just going to work and doing my job. And all of a sudden there were these rave comments about this character and what I was doing with her. I graciously accepted the recognition.
This year I was anxious because there'd been so much hype and I was waiting to come back and reinvent her. Do I focus on proving something or what? So I came to a place where I just figured I'd do the work and see what happens -- like I did last year. And maybe the writers will do their job. They really love her this year, though. She's a bad girl! I'm never thinking of her as a bad girl. But she is a diva. I kid around in the makeup trailer. "Penny is not a diva, but Sherry is."
How do they reserve you when they don't know when they're using you exactly?
You're signed on for certain episodes. You're prepared to work and you don't schedule anything during that time. It's written in four different arcs. When a section was over they'd have an idea of what they'd be doing in the next arc, so when I got word that I would be free, word got out and I was offered other jobs. The problem is, you're free but you're not really free. You can always be called into work. 24 is my first priority, so the worst scenario is that you're getting paid and you're not doing anything. [laughs] But I was able to do The Vagina Monologues and play Condoleezza and meet with some people for future projects.
When Sherry says, "The bomb was never meant to go off," in your mind is she telling the truth?
Absolutely. I think that finally someone used Sherry. And that was one of the biggest conflicts for her. It was enough to store venom to hate again. Not only was she used, she was used by someone so very powerful -- the Kingsley character -- and he was so much more powerful than she was that he could take her out. And I think that was alarming and disarming for Sherry because she's always in control and nothing is too much for [her]. So she found herself thinking, "Oh my God, how do I fix this one? I'm not the one controlling it. Someone is using me!" Sherry ended up getting played and that was a reality check for her. It made her lose contact with the reason she was doing this in the first place: the fact that she loved that man and he didn't want her anymore.
At the end of last season when they were bringing you back for the second season, what were they telling you about your character?
They weren't telling me anything.
Big surprise.
[laughs] Yeah, absolutely nothing. I did not find out anything about my character until we had this presentation for the Television Critics Association where I cornered Joel [Surnow] and I said, "Okay, where do we go from here?" And he said, "You don't want to know everything." And I said, "Oh, you're right, I don't. [laughs] But I must know something." And he said, "Well, this is what's going to happen." And I was anxious to know what was going to happen and how she'd come back onto the scene and how she would show herself and get back into everyone's good graces or not. I guess the second season was about getting in good graces no matter what -- redemption. The first season is about "not getting being found out." But this season was a wonderful game of chess. She would try different tactics. She ended up playing a master game with Jack Bauer. Sherry doesn't like to lose. She'll go to no end to prove that.
Day One, you were a masterful public figure -- someone who could assume the ornamental duties of the First Lady and play to the audience. Day Two, you were you a player. You were a Pamela Harriman character -- a backroom gal, so to speak.
Well, the "Day Two Sherry" was a woman scorned. She was right out of the Bible. Jezebel! [laughs] And yet she was still believing and feeling. There was a scene we shot that didn't make the final edit of the last episode. I believe it's going to be on the DVD. Anyway, the scene shows that Sherry gets a lot of satisfaction out of being redeemed. Actually I'm happy they didn't put it in because it defined her a little too much. The beauty of her is her ambiguity -- the fact that you always have to guess where she's coming from. It would have been foolish to make her too clear.
Yeah, and it's a little unclear what happens to her. It took me two viewings to realize that she'd been led away in handcuffs.
[laughs] It was the scene right before that.
And can you tell me about that scene?
You know what? Here's the thing about being on 24: Penny doesn't lie. But Sherry does. I can't lie but I can't tell you the whole truth. [laughs] There are some truths that even now I'm not certain of. We become masters of talking in circles. My daughter told me that yesterday. We were at an event yesterday. People were asking me about next season and she said to me, "Ma, you really know how to answer questions!" And I'm trying to think, what is she talking about? And then I think, oh I know what she's talking about. I've learned to master talking in circles and trying to sound quite profound while doing it.
We keep topping and topping and there's so much more to top. Even the final episode was not our very best episode in my eyes. You know, it was wrapping up things and sometimes you do it a bit too quickly. We had twenty-four hours to do that…nine months to do that [laughs]. 24 is fast-moving but it was really moving fast for me: that final episode. There was so much to get in. It should have been a two-hour show, as far as I'm concerned.
But I enjoyed it. Sherry had to do something. Her husband has kicked her out. She was a woman scorned. And the most fearful thing in this world is a woman scorned. We can do anything. We can stop the population of the world. All we have to do is close our legs and not have babies. [laughs] So Sherry had to do something and I was very happy that they did give me something to do. And even still, I challenge them to show what Penny can really do with Sherry. And there's so much more. I don't even believe we've begun to tap that reservoir of things that can come out of her.
It's funny you should say "biblical," because I was thinking of Greek mythology. When you say, "I swear on the lives of my children…"
Medea.
Exactly. I was wondering if that was foreshadowing of something nasty happening to the kids.
The writers plant seeds and you're always guessing what kind of fruit you're going to see. Sometimes you go the other way. And that's what's great about 24. Although you have to have some consistency so that you keep following and watching, you're familiar with certain people and you're familiar with certain behavior. You grow to really like it or love to hate it.
So who would win in a fight between Lynne and Sherry?
Oh, Sherry without a doubt! She's too smart. She wouldn't even have to throw a punch.
And you expect something sassy with Sherry and Lynne. You wanted those two people to be in a room together. You anticipated something. And I think you were very disappointed if nothing happened.
Catfight…
[laughs] Exactly. And I'm a very good fighter -- physically -- so I really wanted the chance to fight. Actually I really wanted to pull the trigger in the final episode!
The outfit when you meet Lynne: Seventies pimpalicious or Nora Charles?
The thing about Sherry's profile is, you just know it's her. All you have to do is see my lips and that's Sherry. The producers didn't want the hat but Jim Lapidus, the costume designer, had the hat. I was like, "Let's do the hat." I mean, I knew we weren't doing Dynasty or anything but I didn't want them to know it was me at first. I don't know how the producers liked it in the end but they didn't seem to mind it at the time. It was fun to have something to do something different. Plus, it was chilly out there and I really needed something on my head.
What about between you and Kiefer -- without weapons, of course.
When two people are fighting on the street, that's safe. You say, "Hey, c'mon, the only thing that's stopping us is air!" Well, the only thing that was stopping me in that final episode was that gun. [laughs] Other than that, Sherry can hold her own. She's not stupid. I almost wanted her to use that gun in Kiefer's defense at the end.
You never did get to hold a weapon, did you?
No. I thought it would have been interesting to see who I'd shoot. But then, I'm the actor and not the writer.
You started having scenes with Kiefer. And that hadn't happened before.
We had only been in the same room last season.
You also hadn't done any action before.
I know. I got to run and do things. That was exciting.
What was that like?
It was a relief. It's what required of me. I was like, "Great, I get to do what I do in my real life." It's funny because one of the producers' big concerns with all of that action was how high my heels were and if I was going to break an ankle and I thought, oh my gosh, they really don't know Penny! [laughs]. They're confusing Penny with Sherry, who is a diva who might not want to run. Actually I had to tone down my running because I don't think Sherry's as good a runner as Penny. It was exciting to do those things and to get stabbed. She's taken on the role of a man, except you know she's all woman. And it was fun to see her do those things.
So last year I asked you who you were basing your performance on -- the first black First Lady -- and you said, "Hillary and Lady Macbeth." Who were you thinking about this year as the first divorced First Lady…who is also African-American.
This season was just about rejection. [laughs] And actors suffer that a lot, so we become masters of handling that. Sometimes it's not pretty. And in Sherry's case it's never going to be pretty. Pretty is boring. It's gotta be nasty and drawn out. But you know she wanted to be in that White House so bad she could taste it, so anyone who was in that White House was going to be her enemy until -- or unless -- she was there. That was a driving force for her.
Was Lynne a threat to you? Was something going on between Palmer and Lynne? At least in your mind…or in Sherry's mind?
[laughs] Well, it's a choice an actor makes in her head. And I have to make a choice that's actable. No woman in her right mind is going to let another woman walk in her shoes. No woman. And that's a simple choice to make but it is so very tangible and actable.
So you literally thought they were sleeping together, or you felt that she was fulfilling duties that you were supposed to have performed had Palmer not left you?
All of the above. No one should fill Sherry's shoes. It's the same thing with the Jack Bauer character. Last year, her husband makes a decision based on Jack's advice. That's a big slap in the face. You spend all this time being the confidante of an individual in the most intimate way and someone who is not as close in your eyes can come in and give advice and it's taken over yours. It's the biggest insult ever. So revenge is what you act upon. In Lynne's case, she's female, so it's "you're not going to take my man."
What happened to your kids?
What did happen to our kids? [laughs] I asked that question a bunch of times! Can I please mention my kids? No, but seriously, the focus simply went somewhere else, but still, I did miss at least mentioning the kids because we were established as this wonderful, tight-knit family. I think it's unrealistic to go through all of this and not mention, "Oh, Nicole's away in college and we don't want to disturb her," or something like that. Our son was in the first episode, and he did come for the final episode but I didn't see him in it. [laughs] A few things were cut out.
My impression is that lots of things are cut at the last minute…
Well, they've been very good with leaving as much in as possible. I've never been watching and gone, "Oh wow, that's cut." Okay, once last season I realized something I did was cut, and this year, of course, the final episode was cut in places. Last year I realized that stuff was cut from my performance because they didn't want Sherry to have a conscience. The Jack Bauer character comes in and he says, "My daughter could die!" and Sherry is supposed to say, "I am so sorry about your daughter but you have to understand…" They cut that and made the Sherry character look like she didn't care. Like, "Screw your daughter!" That's in bad taste, as far as I'm concerned. It's coming from a place of dishonesty. You got to come from someplace real. When people come up to me and say, "Oh, Sherry's so evil," I have to agree because that's what it looks like. But when I'm playing her, she's not. I have to believe in her in order to make her believable.
You can't just put your hands together and cackle.
Uh, no. Although that's been known to happen on many different shows. [laughs]
Why did you make so few appearances this season?
That bothered me at the beginning because I thought that was a big mistake to wait to bring her on. And then when I came on, it was well worth the wait. We listen to the fans and Sherry was served up "well" for the fans.
Well, she had to make an entrance.
Absolutely, and you're wondering when you're going to see her and how she's coming. And then…she's BACK! And then it was a little bit disheartening in the middle because I wasn't around -- although it was nice to have a vacation [laughs] -- a paid vacation. But then when I did come back it was a surprise again. I think Sherry is a surprise element. She's the ace that you hold on to.
Joss Whedon once said that what viewers want is not necessarily what they need. I wonder if this is why you and Nina were underused in the second season.
I agree. If we'd been on every episode, it would be overkill. You always want more from those characters and you want to leave them wanting more.
Of course when you're the actors playing it, you want to work more. [laughs] We have mouths to feed in our real lives. But I think that the good thing about Sherry is that unless you kill her, she will always come back.
Is Palmer dead?
No comment.
But do you know whether or not he's dead?
Yes.
With the ratings jump, are things different fan-wise?
Well, now [laughs] I have people handling my fan mail.
When did that happen?
The moment I came back second season. There was an article in Savoy Magazine, I think, and it said, "The Bitch Is Back!" [laughs] And all of sudden I was like, "Whoa!" It was a flood of fan mail. People like evil, go figure. [laughs] You don't want to play the good girl.
Yeah, I'd think it would be awful to be cast as Kate.
Especially when they're writing characters like Sherry.
Let's talk about clothes, hair, and makeup.
This was a much better year. This year I got a haircut and I was so pleased. Last year people who met me in real life would say to me, "Oh my God, I thought you were so much older!" You're playing a character, you're not thinking how that transfers back to you, but apparently I looked a lot older in "First Lady" mode.
Yeah, you look much younger on Larry Sanders and it's not like a lot of time passed since they went off the air.
Yeah, it was fun to think about what Sherry would do with her hair now that she wasn't in the public eye. I decided that she would wear her hair straight and long. But then I had a chance to change again when I reappeared and I opted for the classic ponytail. Two reasons. I was doing a movie in Canada and I was flying back and forth and [I] knew I couldn't be caught between a rock and a hard place in terms of hair. I don't like to damage my hair with hot irons and stuff like that so I thought if I simplified my hairstyle, it would make it easier to go from one set to another. I wore a wig for the other project and it worked out beautifully because it was all so simple. Just pull it back and it's classic.
And you're divorced now…
That was a conscious choice. My thought was that, hey, a man drops you -- you better look great. From your hair to your crusty toes! [laughs] File those puppies and show them off. I was interested in looking good. I still had to keep the professional look because she needs to occupy that world. She knows everybody. You're not going to find her in a mini-skirt or a torn t-shirt. Not too much crazy hair. She still had a classiness about her. What was most important was getting closer to Sherry's age. Sherry is six years older than Penny and I don't have to fix things yet. I want people to remember me as not a bad-looking chick. And she's not that old. At least I have younger fans calling me hot. I'm a hard-working lady. I can outrun these younger kids!
What was your favorite outfit?
Jim [Lapidus, the costume designer] did a wonderful job on the suit at the end. He wanted to maintain Sherry's poise. We kept the shoes from early on because I liked the height. I didn't want to be too tall for Kiefer, but they weren't because he stands on his own. Comfort was very important.
On my hiatus, I was directing The Vagina Monologues. I guess I was working my butt pretty hard because when I got back to the set, I was thinner than Jim had planned on. He had to get different sizes. He didn't know if I was going to level out and go back to that size 3 or 4. He was like, "Oh gosh, Peeenny! You can't do this to me!" I was like, "I'm not doing anything! I'm just working!" That was classic. He's great . He knows my body so well he even worked with the costume designer on DC 9/11.
So let's talk about that project.
It takes place [during] the terrorist attack, and then ten days later and what our government was doing and how they went about making decisions. It's an ensemble piece. Condi is the only woman around. It's empowering.
And I would just like to say that Condoleezza Rice is my hero, and I was going to stop at nothing to get to play her.
What's different about playing her as opposed to playing Sherry?
Well, first off she's a Republican. [laughs] Actually, there are a lot of similarities. The intellect, the power. Well, the power that she has and that Sherry had. But with Condi you are charmed by her and you really learn to trust her. Because there are no lies thrown at you. No deceptions. She is what she is. And what she is is pretty awesome. She's as straight as they come. Condi does not use her energy to get a personal agenda going. Sherry, on the other hand, it's about her. Condi transcends gender and ethnicity. She could be the first female president. But the thing about 9/11 is that you're able to put aside your politics and see them as human beings. They are our leadership. Either we need to support them or get them out of there. It's a family show in that it kind of says that America is a family and President Bush is the daddy of the family and he's making decisions in the best interest of the family because that's his job.
Did you get to meet Condi?
There was a luncheon, but I realized I couldn't be in three places at once -- only two. We couldn't work that out and I was really disappointed.
So what about an Emmy nomination? Apparently you're on the shortlist.
I had no idea. How lovely. I'm ready for that. I have paid a lot of dues. Hopefully the work speaks for itself. I'd be honored. I graciously accept it.
What do you think the tabloids saying about Lady Mac? Do they know why Palmer divorced her?
That's the spin-off! [laughs]